#134: Jan: One, Mohammed: Nil

Foreign.

Welcome to Blind Guys Chat, where Oren o'.

Nemeal.

Hello.

Yang Bloom.

Hello.

And Mohammed Lashear.

Hi there.

Talk about the A to Z of life.

Hello, ladies and gentlemen. And you're very welcome to episode 134 of Blind Guys Chat. Now, just because I managed to get his name correct in the recording during the interview, Frank Von Veltzeness.

Well done.

Will be on the show later on. And I'm going to say his name again, Frank Von Velsen. This, because I've got it right again, will be on the show later on. And I might even say it at.

The end just to test your memory.

Yeah.

Very proud of you, Oren.

Thank you very much, Bo. That's probably the first Dutch name I've got right. Ever.

Well, John Bloom, I think you got quite plugged.

Bloom, like the tulips.

Indeed.

Flower on the half. Flower. Yeah.

We have a.

In Dublin, we were saying Amiel Flower. It's an affectionate term.

Yeah.

Really?

Yeah, yeah. Flower. That's right. Anyway, I want to hop to it because we do have a wonderful interview with Frank, but a very important update needs to be had from Muhammad about his date with Jan. Oh, yeah, the hot date. Yeah, the hot date. Local. Are you getting a second date out of it?

No, In. In fact, he's never coming to this podcast again. Oh, no, he's scared of me now. Ye. We have. He's scared of me now.

Go on, tell us about it.

No, it was pretty nice. I mean, we. So, funnily enough, so we went to the stadium and, you know, we were coming up to it, and it was pretty full. Pretty packed, actually. Full house. And Jan breezed through the ticket checks and I was with Chantal, his wife. We were getting in, trying to get in, and they just wouldn't let us in. They were like, nope, these are the wrong tickets. No. And we were standing there and I'm like, okay, so what now? So they called up all their contacts. I don't know. Everybody knows Jani Der Hach, I guess. And so he called up the. The guy who. Basically the head of the. The blind. The. How do you call it? The blind stands, I guess. So He. He works there, and he came down and he sorted it all out. But we stood there for like 15 minutes or so, and fun enough, like, behind us, there was a line of people trying to get in, but they all moved to different lines at the end. We were completely alone there. People. People ran away from us. And I'm like, well, there we are standing here so he didn't pay you a ticket? He bought me the wrong one and.

Oh.

And he went in himself and he left me and Chantal on the wrong one.

So they.

They let him in and people were going, hey, yeah. Is he with you? Nay, Nay, Nay, Nay.

N. I don't know this guy.

I don't.

Some date, huh?

Some date. Yeah. Now he's angry at me, but that. I don't think that makes sense. I should be angry at him anyway.

Well, you have to. You have to make up with him now. That's their friends, and that means.

But you got in eventually anyway. After 15 minutes.

Yeah, yeah, we. We got in eventually and we sat down and watched the match and. And Jan's team won three to nil. So that was pretty nice. In the beginning, they played really poorly. Like, the first half was just a disaster. It was so boring, it wasn't fun. But then the second half, they got their act together and they scored twice in, what was it, eight minutes or so.

Wow.

The second goal was actually quite well done. It was well played. And at that point, the other team lost all faith and just went through.

And how was the live ad? How was it? Good.

It was pretty good there. So there is a. A player on Yan's team called Kilo. Kilo, as in one kilo, two kilo kilos. And his. His. His number on his back. So all football players have numbers on their backs? Yeah, his number is number 25, so he's 25. So they kept on. They kept on saying 25 kilo. The ball goes to 25 kilo. And I just found it really funny that.

Just small dog. In fairness, it is, yeah.

But also a very small player. Probably not good when the wind is blowing.

No.

So. But. But yeah, it was. It was. It was fairly good. I did put my AirPods on transparency mode, and so when they scored, I couldn't hear them because the stadium was going wild. So. And there was a little concert before the match. There was this. This concert from a band that's called the Krajo, which means the crows in Dutch.

Oh.

And they sounded like crows, but. But the music was all right if you drink enough, I guess so. So that's good.

Okay. And had you. Had you been to football with live AD before?

No, never with live ad. I've been to football before. A long time ago when I could still see. In fairness, I couldn't see well enough to see what was going on on the pitch. I only saw, like, the green of the grass. But I went to a match in 2005. Two matches, actually, when in the Netherlands, we had the. The Youth World cup. So under 20.

Okay.

And Morocco was playing. And I went to a bunch of matches for Morocco, but, yeah, this one was the first one with live ad, and I did also go to another match, but all of them when I could still see. So live ad. This was the first time.

Okay. So it's an adjustment. I'm guessing it is.

But it's also, you know, it makes. It makes for a better stadium experience because you know what's going on.

Yeah.

Otherwise you have to go off of the sounds that the public is making.

Yeah. And you don't know if they're like, do they in. In over there? Do they have, like, the supporters for one team on one side and the other team on the other, or do they mix them?

No, well, no, they don't typically mix them, but also, like the supporters that are from the away team, it's not that many. So typically It'll be like 500, maybe a thousand. This time it was 250, I think, while the stadium can seat, I think 15,000. So most of them are just home fans. Home fans, yeah. It was a really nice experience. And the people from Ado, from Jan's home team were super nice. They asked me which team I supported and I told them and they're like, oh, don't worry, it can happen to the best of us. Sometimes just the wrong one. And Jan was really funny when. When Ado scored, he was. He was jumping up and down and throwing his arms around me. He's like, yeah, we scored.

That's sweet.

It was. He was happy.

So then you had to go home on the train with the. With the losing team?

No, no, no.

They were going a different direction, were they?

They were going in a different direction, but I didn't go home by train, actually. Chantal and Jan were nice enough to drive me home.

Oh, well, I'm glad you enjoyed it. Yeah. Oh, it was a really cool date. But, yeah.

Oh, well, you know, you know, I've moved on already. That's someone else.

That's the best thing to do.

That's the way to do it, man. Love them and leave them, you know?

Shall we hear from our guests? Mr. Frank Van Veltness.

Well done. Let's go.

Go first.

Ladies and gentlemen, it is time for our guest, Mr. Frank von Veltzeness.

Well done. I was so proud of you. Well done.

A former former chief engineer to Lewis Hamilton, when he was driving the McLaren cars, is no longer. No longer working for McLaren, nor. Nor Lewis Hamilton. Because he was sacked. Because I don't know why you were sacked. Well, it's still kind of. It's a bit like Christian Horner. You're kind of. Your sack. Your sackable offense was not really it in the press. Is that right, Frank?

I think I was barely born when Lewis was.

Yeah, I think he tried to integrate a Hable into the steering wheel and Lewis did not like that one bit.

Well, yeah, maybe that's what he's driving with now. Yeah.

No, Frank, he would be first.

Are you the CEO or CTO or head fellow in Havel?

I think the title is director.

Founder.

Director, yeah.

Founder and director of Hebel.

Yes, yes, yes.

You're very welcome. And you are in the Netherlands, isn't that right? You live in the Netherlands?

Yes, I'm in Eindhoven, the South Netherlands.

Right, so it's three against one on this interview.

Bullseye.

I go with the first. The first question, which is our standard question for everyone. What's the weather like in Eindhoven?

Today was not a great day. Today was not a great day. It's kind of like sad and rainy, but as a Dutch person, we like to complain about the weather. So in that sense, perfect weather. I complain a lot about it.

Frank, will you describe, as the director of the company, will you describe what the Hable is?

Yes, of course. Of course. The Hable one, it's a tiny brill keyboard for your smartphone or tablet. It's quite small, so it's around the size of a phone. You can hear the buttons from Oren and fits right in your pocket. And it's just eight buttons and it allows you to fully navigate your phone and type on it in Braille. So it connects to any Android phone, iPhone, and it controls your screen reader with Braille buttons. That's simply put, what the product does.

So does it work on the iPhone with the. The Braille features that it has, for example, opening up an app just by typing the name into your Braille display.

So it's a little different. So it's recognized by the phone as a Bluetooth keyboard. So we can do our own set of commands, but what you're saying you can actually do. So you can use a set of combinations to open any app, but it works a bit different than a. Yeah, Braille display.

And you have also no Braille output. Yeah, it is only.

Yeah, it's just input. It's just input. Just for typing and controlling.

Yeah, Just to be clear here for that.

Yeah, okay.

The keys themselves are not facing you when you're using them.

Exactly.

So they're to the back. So you're basically, you're holding it with your, with your index finger, middle and ring finger to the back of you. And I'm holding with my thumbs at the front. So at the front which is actually the back of the unit, you're not feeling anything. It feels really comfortable when you're using it. And it's, it's a really.

Your fingers aren't represent the same like on the, on the Perkins style Braille keyboard. The same. Your right index finger is, is dot or your, your left index finger is dot.

1, 1, 2, 3. And yeah, 1, 2, 3.

On the right it is 4, 5, 6.

Absolutely. And then you've got two, two little longer bars on the left and the right of those keys which can be used for various things, but mostly used for kind of I suppose, moving on, creating a space or a return if you're writing a text. And then on the right on the right hand side, on the left hand side would be like backspace. Am I correct in saying that, Frank?

Yes, yes, that's correct. And it's also there to navigate. So to do like single finger swipes on the screen. So just moving forward and backwards you also do with those outside keys. And indeed so it's a bit different. So the first time you're holding a hable, it feels a little bit like weird almost because yeah, the buttons are facing away, but it's similar to brillback typing for those that are familiar, like where you turn your screen away and then you type towards yourself. Like the hable one is a similar concept but then it's physical buttons and it's built away because it is actually very natural. So once you get the hang of it, you can do that for hours and hours and it still feels comfortable. And you don't need a desk or surface to put your device on. You can even do it while you're standing. That's the idea behind it.

I just can't believe. Frick. That you've built a device for people, blind people to type on without looking.

That's really thinking about it. It's quite awkward.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is a nice. Yeah, yeah.

And what is the battery level time of those devices?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's. We overdid it. It's really long. So it's. I think we say it's around a month if you use it for four hours a day.

Yeah.

But it's even longer, to be honest. It's, it's, it's the, it's a funny story. It's the number one support question. We get on our support set. People say it stopped working. And then we asked them if they charged it and they told us they didn't know you had to charge the device. They never did it before. Oh yeah, yeah. So it's really low battery life.

That is impressive actually.

And what's even more impressive is even for that battery life, it is an extremely light device.

Yes. Okay.

Weighs very little.

Okay.

Yeah, brilliant.

The idea behind it really was when we were testing it, of course it's an extra device you have to take with you. And an extra device means an extra thing to take care of, it's thing to carry around, but also an extra battery to charge. So we figured let's try to do as much that we can to kind of lessen that strain so it'll still make it. You don't have to charge it every time and you don't have to think about it all the time. It's just with you it doesn't weigh anything. So that's why we kind of came to those designs decisions.

And how are, how have sales of the Hable One gone since you launched it?

It's been out for three years already, I think coming up to three years probably now.

Yeah.

And at the start it was definitely a struggle because it's quite new. So it's just quite new to like kind of explain to people like how it works and why you would use it and which problem it solves. But now we're at a stage where it does quite well. I think we have customers in almost 60 countries and then we work with partners in 40 countries and I hope that soon we will reach like 10,000 active users.

Wow.

So that's where we're working towards and we're getting closer and closer to that goal. So we have thousands and thousands of people who use it every single day. So that's quite. For me that's something I'm really proud of. And yeah, I think that's, it's a good sign that also people use it like a lot. So.

And I think one of the of the things is for you, for Hable is that you don't really seem to sell, at least from what I can see through insurance.

No.

And things like that. So people actually make a purchasing decision themselves. They don't go to the government and ask for or to a charity and ask for the product. They buy it.

Yeah. That's great.

Makes these numbers even more impressive.

Yeah.

And what is then a little bit the price level freak? Is it hundreds or.

It's around €200 equivalent still. Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, it's like, it's right, it's quite a lot of money like so it's not an easy decision for a lot of people of course. So but for us it's also, we often say, well if you think about like upgrading your phone, maybe consider what if I keep my, the same phone or don't upgrade like the maximum upgrade and instead get Hable with it. So but it really has to make a difference. So the product has to be really good because of course, yeah, we're recharging people at this price point so it has to make sense for us as he's kind of where we want to focus. So I personally think there's a lot of really good companies already working on the more high end assist technology that's also insured. But I think there's a lot of kind of more, smaller problems and more products we can work on that are maybe at a lower price range where people can afford it themselves. So with HeyBL, that's kind of where we want to focus also in the future and to develop a bit more low cost products in assistive technology, which is just a different kind of strategy and type of products.

And how many people work for Hable at this time? Because you started three years ago, with whom did you develop it?

We developed it with a team of three people really. But we had a lot of, let's say external helps, a lot of partners because it's a challenge to get hardware to develop a hardware product that's certified you can sell around the world. And when I started I was just a student, it was just next to my studies. We just had an idea and thought, hey, let's see if we can develop this. Because it was from a personal inspiration. My co founder's grandfather was blind and we wanted to develop it for him. But while we were testing a lot of people said oh, I actually would like one as well. And then we figured, oh, then maybe we have to become a company. And then we kind of rolled into this whole startup life and we learned a lot along the way and then yeah, we had got a lot of help for partners to actually be able to develop in the end. And now we're with a team of five people, so we're still a small team. Yeah, I'm just happy we're doing like we're doing well and we're growing and we're coming up with new products. So I'm a happy man at this moment.

Great.

So tell us, speaking of new products, tell us about the Hable Easy, maybe.

So the Hable Easy is a product that, again, came from a question. So we work a lot with professionals and feel like ergotherapists or people who train daily living skills. And we got a lot of feedback continuously where people said, well, we like the Heba one a lot, but for most of the people we work with, it's just too difficult. They are not able to work with Brill. And they. They would love to work with their smartphone through buttons because, like, swiping gestures are way too difficult. But then the Hable one is still too difficult. Can you not make a simpler version? There you go. So easy. So we figured, what if we use the SIM concept but make an easier version? So instead of having to use multiple buttons at the same time, you use one button at a time and one button is one function. And that's where we. Yeah, where we developed the Hable Easy. So it's a similar hardware, actually, but we changed the software. And you can press a single button for single command. So there's one button to swipe forward, one to swipe backwards, one to double tap, one to go home, one to access Siri or Google Assistant, one to pick up a phone call, hang up a phone call. So there's total of eight functions, and then all of them you can also long press. So there are 16 functions. And surprisingly, with 16 functions, you can do so much on the phone, like you can do almost everything you would want to do, especially for this group who really struggles with the phone right now. So that is what the Hable Easy is. We have tactile stickers on the button, so you can really feel what the difference between each button and kind of indicates what it does. So it's a bit more for the audience who struggles a lot with using a smartphone, and this can make it easier for them.

And how do you type then?

You dictate. Typing is dictation. Or you actually have to navigate through the virtual keyboard. Okay, yeah, yeah. So this is really. It's good to understand that this is for the audience who right now just cannot work with a smartphone at all. Like in those trainings, like, even swiping take hours to learn. And that's where they would get the Hippo Easy.

Yeah, but still, it is also in combination with voiceover, or do you do.

It also without voiceover no, this is in combination with voiceover.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then you've got another product called Speechable Label.

Is that Speech table Speech level?

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Mo was right. I should have left. You should have left it to you to say.

Yeah, yeah. So this is very new. So we only launched this in the Netherlands so far in the last month. We are now preparing for our.

Is it always the Netherlands that gets everything first?

Yeah, because we're based here, you know.

Get used to it.

We're the cool country.

Yeah.

We discussed this internally before at Oren, when you were not on the call. Yeah, no, we do deliver these launches in melons because, of course, this is where we're based. But it's very easy for us to get a lot of feedback at once and to make a lot of iterations because there's always, of course, a new product. We tested a lot before you. Before you launch it, but then still when you launch it, there's so many small little things you figure that you can improve. So that's why we want to, like, always do it in stages. And the Netherlands first is a very logical first place to go because, yeah, we know most people here. And.

And what does this product do? Because, yeah, it is. It just released, But. But what does it do, Frank?

Yes. So it's a combination of an app and physical labels. And these are labels. There's two type of labels. So there's labels that you access through a QR code, but also that code, but I'll explain it a bit, and NFC codes. And you can add those sort of like stickers, so you can attach them anywhere. Or there's labels you can add to your clothing. When you scan it with your app, you can attach a label to it. So speech label, so you can add like a voice note or a written note or a very long written notes to it. And the next time you scan this code, this, this. This information comes out. So it's to label whatever things you like. For example, we have customers who just label their whole wardrobe and all their clothing. They label it with what it is, but also what the washing instructions are or which outfit it combines well with. They label things in their kitchen to know what kind of herbs there, or whenever they want to put something in the freezer of a leftover meal. And they say, this is pasta. I made it on the 13th of October. And so next time you scan it, you get the information out.

Do you really have people who are so organized? My God, yes. I feel really. I would not have been. I'm too lazy for that.

You know, I know that I would very much love to have. Whether I would be able to actually, you know, take the time to do it like oh, this is chicken or oh, this is especially in the freezer because, you know, nothing after it comes out of the freezer, it doesn't feel like what it's supposed to be. It feels like it's frozen. Yeah, yeah, it's all cold indeed. So, so but you know, yeah, you need to be organized in order to use it.

That's true.

Yes, yes, that's. So it is there to organize things in your life. And then a cool, A cool part about it is that it's, it's. It's in the cloud if you want to. It is in the cloud. So we also use a little bit organizations. So for example, an organization can put these lab on all sorts of places. So maybe at meeting rooms and like show which meeting room it is or at a coffee machine to give an explanation of how to use it or on equipment that we send out. So whenever we send out the hable one we have a whole manual that we attach on the label and when someone else scans it, they get that information. So it's quite a kind of unique way to link the digital and the physical world together.

And that's a very cool idea because you put it in work in work environments then and. Yeah, yeah, yes. Label things. That's very cool.

It's actually quite helpful to make a lot of things access like there's way more things that we have now after launching learns that we didn't even think of ourselves. But there's a lot of environments where you can really use it to make things a bit more accessible through those voices. And it's nice, it's personal because you can add your own voice. So we have a lot of people use it for like a birthday card or I use it whenever I leave home and I have one on my front door and I just add a message like that I shouldn't forget like my. When I come back at the end of the day because I'm also not so organized. So it's just for myself so I can like leave myself a voice note or leave my girlfriend a voice note. It's like, hey, we still need to do this. So it's also helpful for those type.

Of things are the QR codes, the label itself, are they reusable or.

Yes, yeah, yeah. So they're stickers. So you stick them to a surface but you can reuse the label, you can scan it and edit as many times you want to and then the QR code. So yeah, we call them QR codes, but they're actually. They're the special type. They're AUSTEC codes. So they look the same as QR code, but the difference is that even if you scan just 5% of it, it will still scan it. So even if you have your phone in an angle and you're not able to aim at a sticker, you will still scan it. Actually, at this moment, we're reducing the sensitivity because it's scanning too well. So it just scans everything instantly. But, um, so we need to like kind of reduce the sensitivity right now because it's. Yeah. Too good of a job of scanning it. Um, so it's quite a unique type of. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But do you have then also the. Do you need then your hardware? What. What kind of. Do you need the keyboard then? Hable one or the Hable.

No, no. So just this is like we. Do you use your phone? Yeah, just your phone? Yeah, yeah, just your phone with the app and for us as Hiba. So we want to kind of slowly introduce more products. There's a few more coming also next year. So we want to really move out of just being. Yes, this is a teaser.

You heard it here first, folks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, breaking news. CNN is coming on.

Yeah, yeah.

We need to get us some sound effects.

Yeah, I think so.

Bring.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It would be good.

Okay.

Ye. More pressure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. But you are using then the camera of the phone. But yeah. Are you then also happy with the Meta SDK then?

Yes, yes, we are very happy with that because of course we're going to use things also by the way, for the Hable one. Able. Easy. That is something that's very interesting to us.

Oh yeah, Another Caesar.

Yeah, another teaser.

Yeah.

I'm teasing quite a lot here. I'm not sure if my team is happy with it, but I do this all the time. So they're used.

Pressure is building up, you know, just.

Like the McLarens, you know.

No, but it's. Of course we want to make it usable as many devices and I think the metaclass are just perfect for that as well.

Or me. We are using it well. Well, Mo, you are having the. What is it? Yeah, the Envision.

Yeah. Fellow Dutch startup Envision Allies. I didn't receive them yet, so I don't. Have.

You had a kind of a test day for the Hable one? Is that how did that go?

Yeah, so we, we had a recent test day and we tested six new products. None of them was the able one, actually. So they're all completely new products. And this is something. Yeah, we started doing to get more feedback in. So we have a lot of ideas all the time. And we also get a lot of customers who come to us with ideas. For most of them, we can early on decide like, this is probably not going to be a fit for us or it doesn't work. But there's always still a bunch of ideas where we, where we think it might be. Yeah, it might be something we should develop. And then it's when we organize able testes so we make all these different type of prototypes. And then we. Yeah, in this case we had, I think 30 customers come in from all over the Netherlands and Belgium also, and we go in rounds and every. Yes, everyone tries six different products and they give feedback. And then based on that, we either say that we will throw a product out. So unfortunately, some. This case also two of the products we said, okay, that's definitely not going to work. So they were, they were a no. And then for other products we know, okay, we have to still make these changes, but there might be something there. And for other products we know, yeah, this is definitely a hit and we're going to develop this and bring this to the market. It's a really fun way. And for me, it's probably the most fun day in the year when we do such a test day. It's so good. It's so much feedback. Also just really nice to speak in person with our customers. It's something I really love to do.

And how do you select those people who are coming to those test days? Is it random or do you select them?

Yeah, so in this case we just did a newsletter because it was the first time we did this, like at this, this big of an event, because it was really an event middle of the Netherlands. We had a whole venue and lunch and all these things. And there we just did a. We sent in our newsletter like, hey, is anyone interested to come and test? And we figured like beforehand that we would have to call people up and try to see if we can get. But in within eight hours, we were full.

Okay.

Yeah. So but for the next time we're gonna have to kind of make more profiles. So we have to get like different type of people there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, because this time we had so many like people on the reserve list, so we had to. Yeah, tell. So Many people. No. And next time I want to see if we can do it maybe even bigger.

What were the failures that you threw out? Which ones just didn't make the cut?

Yeah, because we'd like to make those and try and put them out to market ourselves.

Yeah.

Blind guy, come on.

So I got. Okay, what I can say is that it was the products that were not a hit had to do with mobility, which is also new for us because we, and I think there's already a lot of people working on important things in mobility. And all I can say is that we were working on something more fun in mobility. So it was not necessarily focused on usefulness, but it was focused on having more fun in walking with your cane. That's what I can can say that was not. Yeah, we missed the market there.

Okay. I will now start to develop a speaker that you can attach to your cane that makes weird noises every time a lamppost to confuse start shouting, ow. Watch out. Are you blind or something? That's probably. Yeah.

Use AI for that.

Yeah, of course. This is a good idea. Yeah, I think so. Let's, let's get started. The blind guys chat. Cane speaker.

Yeah, you can test it at our next test day. You can bring it.

Hey, that's a good one. Yeah, yeah, but, and I. We learned also in. From you in the, in the, in the time just before the recording that you are going abroad as well to speak with students.

Yes, yes, that's true. So I'm going to Dublin and we're going to visit a school together with Stuart. I think he's a friend of the show.

He is.

Do we know him?

Well, he was until the point where.

He left the show.

He left.

Oh, wait, but he's still a friend. We're still a kid. Of course. It's all right.

You are in safe hands, Frank.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I, I, I, I know Stuart well and actually I, I lived in Dublin for a while and Stuart really showed me around. So I'm so happy to go back and no, we're going to, going to a school and there, of course we're going to show some of the Hable products. But also another thing we're going to do is talk about the design process of developing assistive technology. So, yeah, Hable Test Days is an example of one of the steps in that process. But we're going to do a little bit of a masterclass together with the kids there, with the students on how. Yeah. What goes into designing assistive technology and what are the steps and what do you do with feedback and all these different things and hopefully make it a bit of a fun session. I always think it's really nice for, especially for students and for yeah, younger kids to understand a little bit like what goes into designing such a product and because also when you're judging if something is interesting for you, I think it's good to have some of those, like understand some of those steps and it's just in general really fun to think about these things. And I've done one or two sessions before at a school and yeah, often it's really well received. So I just, yeah, I like to do those things.

And is AI technology coming into any of your new products? I mean, I know you don't want to give anything away, but are you looking into that space? Are you staying away from it or what's your view on AI for assistive technology?

Yeah, so like internally we used a lot. So yeah, my background I've done in my masters, I did a lot of courses around AI. So before it was cool, I would.

Say.

No, that's a big statement to make. But I'm a tech person in the end and I really. Yeah, I've always worked with, well, I've, since my studies worked a lot with AI and it's something we use a lot in the company. But mostly we've used a lot for like things like quick prototyping and internal processes. But indeed for some of the products we're working on, there will be AI in it. Yeah, I can see that.

Where do you think we'll be in 10 years.

Now? I'm listening carefully, you know.

Yeah, well, one of the things I, I actually drew up a few years ago at the company, so that was before we launched able1effie. This is maybe Trickort. Have you seen the movie Her?

Yes, I've not seen it, but I've seen so many clips of it that I should actually like.

It's. It's a bit of an older movie, but it's about an AI. Like this was before all the AI things, but about an AI that was someone was talking to in their, in their ear and like that instead of their phone. Pretty much it was like just earpiece with AI and you could do everything like that. And when I was at movie, I told my team, I said like, I think the screen reader will slowly evolve into that. Like that is. So I think that actually if you think about that concept, like really doing everything in a conversational way with AI that it might come from actually it might start From a screen reader. Because if you think about it, if you have a screen reader on a computer that you can access through your voice that is like. And then actively make it do different things, that is slowly moving towards that final stage of like a conversational AI. And I, I still think that this is a little bit the case. So kind of your user interface just changes to a more. Yeah like conversational and which is really cool and automate because it means that it's adjusts to everyone. So it doesn't really matter how good your technical knowledge is or how you would like to because it's always adjusted to you. And I think that's where in 10 years will be. So UI and UX or like user interface, your experience, it'll be way more personalized. That's what I think. And that will be a big thing for us. I don't surf. This is too technical. But yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's a good fish.

Makes sense to me.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, good good. Not just rambling.

Well the downside of that statement is that we're both very technical. Frick so sense to me.

Frank, if people want to know more about the products that you have to offer, where's the best place for them to go?

Yeah, our website is the best place. So this is imhable.com or just google Hable. So H A B L E. And that's where you'll find us and our products.

Okay. And we'll put that in the show notes as well. Well done on developing and bringing to market all the products that you have now. And we wish you the best of success.

Yeah, for sure.

So much.

And we love to see you back again, you know, because you have launched some, some teaser. So we need to.

Yes, yeah, anytime. Anytime you want to plug your products.

Yeah. We're there for you. Yeah. Thank you, thank you. That's so nice.

Okay, bye bye.

Well, Hypo is a pretty cool company. Right. So the things that they're building are, are very interesting. I, I do wonder though in terms of their like labeling, there are so many other players doing it. I am wondering what they're doing different. I will, I will maybe go look at their labels. Their, their speakeasy.

Is that what speakable speech? Speakable. I think it is, yeah. Speakable Play on. I think it's S, P E E C H L A B. I see.

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah that's, that's where my confusion came from. So it's, it's a pretty cool. It's a Pretty cool product, but other companies are doing it, so I wonder what they're doing differently. I. I will look at that.

Yeah, The Haber one. I cannot, I cannot not recommend it, folks. And I would.

And then you do recommend it. Just to translate.

I do recommend the oranism there.

My English backwards.

Yeah, you're. You're the oral whisperer. Close.

Was just a bit confusing there.

Yeah.

Well, if you haven't seen Havel, I would have A one I would thoroughly recommend is, as he said, about €200 or so and I think it is. It's one of the more affordable devices that you will really. I use more or less every day.

You do?

You do? I do, yeah.

I can hear you click clacking away at night. Yeah, yeah.

But I can't wait to see what's coming out next year with them. Anyway, have we got any emails?

We do. We've got one that's gonna blow your mind because it's from Australia. I know. I don't think we've ever had. Well, we may have listeners, but I. I don't think we've ever had an email from Australia before, have we? But a lot of shrimp or maybe we have and they just are in stop ups, alienating our listeners. Oh, sugar. Hang on a second.

Oh, no.

What's wrong?

My headphones fell off.

Oh, no. Disaster.

Better your headphones than your head, right?

Yeah, that does happen sometimes, but okay. Anyway, we got an email from Sarah in Australia. She doesn't say where she's from, but she did say, I'll tell you. Why don't I just read the email? Why don't I do that? She doesn't say. So I don't know, she might email us back and tell us. Hi, blind guys, chat team. I'm loving the show. You guys crack me up every episode. I'm blind from birth and trying streamline my daily routines. I use Siri a lot, but I'm wondering if smart speakers like Alexa or Google Home can actually make life easier or are they just fun gadgets? Do you use them for anything practical or are they just glorified jukeboxes? Cheers from down under, Sarah.

So I don't have any of these speakers myself. In order to make them useful, I do think that you need some other machinery like smart lights and stuff like that. Otherwise it's just a glorified jukebox.

Yeah.

Yeah, we have several. I'm kind of embarrassed to tell this story.

Go on.

But we have several. We have several Amazon Echo devices and a couple of Years ago, they stopped working. I think we got a new router for our WI Fi. And for some reason, the Amazon Echoes would not pair with the WI fi.

We did what we always used to do, repair them. And it just wouldn't work.

And it just wouldn't work. And I've. I've kind of left it in my own ignorance. And we. So we have these units, but they're basically paperweights at the moment, dust gatherers. Are they any good? Yeah, I mean, they are glorified jukeboxes to a certain extent. There are some nice. Yeah. There are certain apps that are fun.

And they're better than Siri, if you don't mind me saying.

They are. They are better than Siri. Absolutely. I was fully agree with you. But I know there's a new. There are new Echo Devices, Echo plus devices that are coming out and they're supposed to have. I cannot remember what the advantage of, but there's something. Amazon are releasing some.

It's Alexa Plus.

It's called Alexa plus. And I'm not. I cannot remember what that's about. What the advantage of electricity.

I think it has a screen.

It's more chatgpt like.

Yeah, okay.

It's much smarter. It's able to carry on a much more sophisticated conversation. It's a beta product right now, so it does sometimes get confused. When you turn it to tell it to turn on all the lights in your house, it turns them off or it only turns on some lights, but.

Not all of them.

So it's not perfect yet, but I am reading that it's getting better all the time. The reason, by the way, why I don't have any of these devices. I probably could do Google. I need to look into that. I was planning to look into that, but I've not done so yet. But Amazon, the Echo devices here in the Netherlands are just much less useful. They only. I think last year or. Yeah, last year I think they brought out Alexa in Dutch. So it wasn't really available before that. You'd have to speak English, which I can't do. I mean, you guys can hear me right now. I can't speak English at all.

You can speak English a lot better than Oregon speak English, but we won't go there.

So, yeah, no Alexa devices for me. I need to look into Google.

To be fair and fairness, Alexa has evolved and the Google home thing has evolved, but Siri doesn't seem to have evolved at all. She's a.

Well, she evolves backwards.

Yeah.

What is back, like, why have they just dropped her and not developed it further? Because, I mean, they're missing a trick, I think because your phone is always with you.

Yeah. The thing about Apple is Apple is trying to do everything on device and so they take their sweet time. One of the really annoying things in the Netherlands, for example, is if you've got your phone set to Dutch and you try to transcribe into it in English or you tell Siri to play an English language book or an English language movie on Netflix using Apple tv. I don't have an Apple tv, but it would work that way as well. I'm certain. It just won't find it. By the way, it won't find it because it's just unable to. To transcribe English words when it's set to Dutch.

Okay.

Right.

It's a bit.

Isn't a bilingual mode? A bilingual mode would be great where you could have two.

There is one. There is one bilingual mode and it's English and Hindi. So good luck if you speak those two languages.

So you don't have an option of changing. That's interesting. I'm not sure we've really answered.

I don't think we've. Yeah. I think if somebody has like a.

Minute, I think Sarah. I think for Sarah, try to think of things that you wanted to do.

Yeah.

And if. If you can think of things that you wanted to do around the house. For example, do you have a robo vacuum and you want to be able to start it reliably? Do you have an oven or an air fryer that can be controlled with Alexa, which those do exist.

Yeah.

And it's in fairness very handy because you can have it set the temperature for you if you have those accessories that the. The echo is extremely handy. If you have none of those accessories, I wouldn't go for it.

Yeah.

That's the end of the show. Thanks for listening, folks. And do remember, the email address is blind guys chat gmail.com and we will see you in two weeks time.

Yay. Thank you.

Thank you.

Bye.