#142: The ADESI Project

Foreign.

Welcome to blind guys chat, where oren o'.

Neill. Hello.

Yang bloom.

Hello.

And mohammed lashear.

Hi there.

Talk about the a to z of life.

Well, hello, ladies and gentlemen, and you're very welcome to episode 142 of Blind Guys Chat. Now, as seems to be tradition, we're going to go straight in to our guest for this week. It's all about audio description and we hope you enjoy it. Dr. Lucia Pentara Gutierrez. Lucia is just back from the Winter Olympics where she has won gold medal for being able to stay in a fridge freezer for up to 12 hours and not eat a Magnum ice cream.

Thank you for that.

A.

I don't like Magnums now.

Oh, do you?

I know.

Oh, I don't. Do you like the. The pure one or the milky one or the.

I go for the pure, if anything.

Oh, you don't go for the. The new one, the lemon. Lemon peach or whatever it is. Lemon fizz.

That does not sound natural.

Lyncia is a lecturer at the School of Applied Languages and Intercultural Studies in DCU here in Dublin. She has recently launched a paper on audio description within Ireland and it's a fantastic report, if you can get it read. Deals with not only audio description for tv, but filament, theatre about and museum and all aspects and sports as well. Congratulations on getting it this far. Well done. How do you feel after trying to get that through?

It's been a fantastic opportunity. Like, I suppose I've been doing research for over 20 years and this is the first time that I felt that I was kind of putting a pair of wellies and go down to the farm, get dirty kind of, in a way. There was barely any information under the description as, you know, as a kind of a mapping exercise in Ireland, which is not the case in many other European countries. So it's been fun. It was amazing to be able to kind of get, as I said, my hands dirty and do research on what's being done here and there and actually get, you know, stakeholders within media accessibility, theatre, sports and so on. Get colleagues from that area like Oren and wanting to collaborate with me. It's been excellent. It's very exciting.

What was the driver behind this? Why did you decide to look at ad?

Yeah. Why do you come out of Spain to Ireland and do this kind of research? Why don't you stay nice? Yeah, yeah. This is terrible weather. My God.

I know, I know. Well, would you? Yeah. You'd be surprised to learn that I kind of landed full time in Ireland in 2000. 2. So, yeah, yeah, I've been here, I've been around. Yeah. So I forgot about the sun in Spain and everything like that.

You know, I can even hear a bit of an Irish accent, like.

Yeah, an Irish Spanish accent, definitely.

Yeah, I do try. I do try. But I still have my, you know, my Spanish kind of background glowing up for me.

Yeah.

But, yeah, so basically I came to Ireland in 2002, so I came with scholarship to teach language in UL, the University of Limerick. And. Yeah, and I got then to do my research, did my PhD in, you know, language learning, innovation and translation. And it's all very, well, very interesting. But I suppose the good thing or the beauty of academia is that you can actually do research on any area that you have an interest in. So you're doing research on something that you think is interesting, that you want to know more, but also that you can help advance knowledge, you know, that kind of way.

Yeah.

So I suppose that commitment to kind of like be aware or be alert of what's happening around you brought me to Audio Description. And it was actually through a good colleague and a good friend, Dr. Gloria Torralba. She's based in Spain, so. In Spain. Yeah. Well, it all, you know, it all brings me to Spain.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The good things are there.

Yeah, well, sometimes at least, anyway, but. But she kind of showed to me how the description could be brought in the language classroom and could help students develop accessibility. And those students are kind of like future linguists and translators. So I decided to implement it in my classes. So I would have brought a blind person for a few years. It was Kevin Kelly from Vision Ireland to help students see what the different communicative needs may be across different kind of groups. So the blind and visually impaired being one of them. So in these classes, it's kind of like we do a set of activities. So they learn how to describe and communicate content. Say they work on their own scripts, they record them, so they would record themselves. They learn what the description is. And not only that, but they love the experience. And then they learn that perhaps this is something that they want to do when they graduate.

What's the percentage of people with visual impairment in Ireland? Because we just have to. And we also have to be clear that this report that you've written is just about audio description in Ireland. But we'll get on to where this might expand in Europe later. But just in Ireland, what's the percentage of people, do you know, who are visually impaired or blind?

So in Ireland, there is 5 to 6% of people who are blind or visually impaired, which is, you know, quite significant.

Yeah.

Is audio description only meant for the visually impaired?

In some cases, yes. In some other cases, they don't want to rely on the service or they don't think that they can rely on the service. So whatever I carried out with my students in the class, it kind of like. Let me want to know more about audio description. And this is where Adesi. So Adesi, the report stands for Audio Description in Ireland. So what I did, I wanted to explore what are the description would be among three different sectors. So in the first place, I suppose I wanted to see if the description was taught in universities in Ireland, because this is done in other European countries and whether, you know, future generations of students which are going to be the professional ones needed to be trained or are actually trained in accessibility at all. Then the second group would have been the entertainment industry. So I wanted to see what the provision of audio description was within media accessibility, but also like cinema, theater, museums and sports, as Oren was saying earlier. And then I wanted to look at the experience from the users. So do they actually engage with audio description or do they not? And responses were mixed. Most of audio description users are either blind or visually impaired, so both of them would be using those services, according to the surveys. But some don't fully trust that they can depend on audio description because they don't even know when audio description services are available. Which was a very interesting, in a way, sad as well, thing to hear.

Yeah, yeah, but because how do people make them aware that audio description exists, for example, in a. In a cinema or a theater or in a museum?

Word of mouth. What I just said is really true because there is not enough promotion of audio description services. So people actually don't know. They know more or less what's on TV because it's advertised and because they may have access to the menu where you can see when one program is already described or not. But come to theater, cinema, museums and so on. There is hardly any communication, any promotion, any awareness of those services being offered. Yeah. Which is really, really problematic. In fact, it was kind of like the most negative aspect that came through this report. It's over 80% of people who are blind or visually impaired who don't know, you know, what services are there at all.

Yeah. Just to put it into some perspective, I did some research on this with focus groups some years ago, and I think it was, for me, it was kind of saddening to hear that the only way they would know if it's audio described is if as they're moving through the channels, if they heard audio description, they would then decide to watch that program because it had audio description. Not necessarily because they wanted to watch it, but because it had audio description. And I think that's quite kind of soul destroying, particularly when you talk about regulation.

They vary, they increase every year and every year, at least in broadcasting, they are mesh and even surpassed. The issue goes when you're looking across the different sectors of the entertainment industry and you bring in, as you were asking before, cinema, theater, museums, what happens because there is no regulator behind.

So it's interesting, Lucia, we're talking about communication and one of the things that sometimes we also run into with access technology is you build a whole lot of good features and cool programs and cool things that people can use and you do communicate about them. But then you go out into the wild and you find out that so many people just do not know about what's available. So I, I wonder if you've also looked at effective communication strategies to get the information across to as many people as possible.

Well, that's an interesting question. I actually didn't do a follow up on this. So after I would have done the three surveys across the three sectors, I kind of organized a steering group where Orang was a partaker. So it was, you know, like different stakeholders across different sectors of the, of the entertainment industry. And the idea is that with the findings from the report, we'd like to continue on. And I think one key aspect which doesn't fully answer your question, but it might touch a little bit on it, is the need for individual work to be orchestrated in a better manner. Because it's amazing that there is so many people out there trying to, trying to make audio description and accessibility work. So, you know, like the report says that, yeah, the description is not failing in Ireland because there is either a lack of challenge or goodwill, but because it is a fragmented, informal and very, very often an invisible area. So communication is key, but there has to be an orchestrated movement, perhaps a regulator that will help to kind of get all the stakeholders together. I do think that this bottom up approach could actually make any changes whether an advocacy group can be the person or the element that kind of gets all the stakeholders together, perhaps. So I don't think it's something easy to do regardless of who is behind it.

Yeah, yeah. What about the awareness, I suppose, of media accessibility in higher education? Is that a problem as well that you found in the research?

It's Next to nothing. You know, teaching on either of the description or accessibility across the different degrees at universities here in Ireland. Next to nothing. And those who actually teach either of them, which, you know, some colleagues might be in linguistics, in the linguistics department, some others in journalism, perhaps in music as well, if I recall. Well, they do it because they have an interest, not necessarily because it's part of the curriculum or it has to be part of the curriculum, or because they do research on it, but just because they feel that it's an important element themselves.

Yeah, so we really need to get to a stage where it's become embedded in the education.

Yeah, but you see what happens here. I think it goes back to kind of the tradition of each and every country. Like, for instance, in some countries, like actually the Netherlands, Spain, Italy and many other countries, audio description is part of media accessibility and audio visual translation. The fact that audio description may be part of training within the degrees of translation studies or translation and interpreting, does not necessarily mean that there is a bigger infrastructure or a closer collaboration between industry and education, for instance. So, like, say, in Spain, there is a big tradition on media accessibility and visual translation. You know, audio description could be part of the training, but it's general enough, if you know what I mean. And there is some collaboration between academia and industry, but one is not always or necessarily reflective of the other. On the other hand, I think we have to think that legislation is there, but then training provision and experience of the users, or what the member states, and I say member states because of the regulations of the European regulations, what they want to put at stake, then it goes in an individual manner, doesn't it? So then there is huge disparities.

Yeah, it's massive. And actually, do you know if the EAA does actually provide for audio description, I don't think it's meant to regulate media, is it? No, I don't think so.

The EAA says, sorry, Lucia.

No, I met. No, I'm enjoying this.

This is something somewhat little bit confusing. You can get into an argument with somebody fairly quickly about the EAA and audio description, but basically, let's take the example of YouTube. If you put something up on YouTube, you make a piece of content that has audio description available on it that you have produced yourself. YouTube must make that audio description available to the viewer. But it doesn't mean that if I make a piece of content and put it up on my YouTube channel, that YouTube is liable to create the audio description for that piece of content.

So.

So it only relates to if there's audio description available, or if there's subtitles available, or if there's sign language available and it's playing on whatever your equivalent of our player is, our iplayer or orteplayer. If the content is available with access services, there must be provision within, let's say, that website to play that content with audio description or with subtitling or with sign language. There's no obligation on broadcasters to make sure, for example, as some people kind of think, there is an obligation on the broadcasters in Ireland to produce everything with audio description that. That all the content. That's actually not the case. That's not what the EAA says. The regulator does set a percentage for each broadcaster here in Ireland that must produce X amount of content with audio description. But there, as Lucia says, with regard to film and theater, those regulations just don't exist. It's quite annoying when the distribution of the audio description file that was made, wherever it was made, does not follow with the. With the print or the file, the movie that you're watching, which is absolutely mental. Absolutely.

Yeah. It's crazy.

Yeah, yeah. We need to look at that and see how do you start talking to all the providers, all the practitioners, or at least say, give us the script.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that it can be recorded in our. In our own language. You know, it can be record in Dutch or French or German or whatever. But let's not have to go and reinvent the wheel where we have to say, okay, let's look at the content again and see where can we. What are we going to say here? How many seconds do we have, what's relevant? If somebody has already done that, surely we can. At the very least, we can export the script from the original.

Is it a matter of oversighting things, overseeing things, or is it a matter of costs, I wonder?

I think it's just a matter of oversight. I think, as you say about the media accessibility, if it's not embedded in our thought process, the only people who are going to make it happen are the people are the end users who go, like me and Jan and Mo say, well, why can't I have audio description on the latest movie? Or why can't you tell me what's available on TV tonight? Or why can't I look at the website for the museum I want to go to and find out if there's audio description available or in the theatre?

And there are discussions about production, like embedding audio description from the initial stages of the production. Definitely.

Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, and there should be. And it's it's, it's a pity that it is usual like I talking to a production team today who have just said, oh, I believe we have to deliver audio description for this series. And you're thinking to yourself, well, okay, you got money funded for this maybe two years ago. And part of that funding in your contract says you have to provide subtitles or sign language or audio description. And now you're only reading the contract because you're coming to the end of your production. How are we going to change the mindset so that people think, well, when I put on this play, I must ensure that it's signed and it has audio description. That's kind of interesting how we change the minds of those people.

So, Lucia, about your report, what actually surprised you the most while you were doing your research?

I think the thing that surprised me the most was actually the little, well, a couple of things, but the little awareness about audio description services available, that they're not reaching out, as I was mentioning before, and if it doesn't reach out the end user, you know, what's the point? It's really, really sad to hear that even though efforts are being made. And the second part, I think is just like the importance of awareness. People don't know what other description is. As Oran was just saying, they think of subtitles. It's happened to me when I would, you know, I would go to do my research and inquire about audio description and they constantly talk about subtitles. So if people, if they kind of like, you know, the gatekeepers of the industry of entertainment, whether it is, you know, the cinema, the theater, sport, museums and so on, if they don't know what audio description is and the needs that a blind or a visually impaired person have, then how are we going to kind of make increase this culture of awareness? So the lack of awareness did stagger me, actually. Still does, by the way.

Yeah, yeah, but, but when it is aware, when you know about it, etc. But did you also research or did you discuss it, what were the best ways of using audio description?

So in terms of equipment, I didn't really inquire what equipment they use, like end users use. Yeah, I didn't because what I found out was that most of the end users would look at, you know, broadcasting. Most of them did not even consider video games, live events or, you know, or going to museums or galleries, for instance. But there was a couple of things that also surprised me. One was people blind or visually impaired having bought a tv, which did not allow them to use the audio description. So they kind of go back home and it happened in one or two occasions that they went back home and they couldn't use the equipment, the TV that they had bought in order to access the audio descriptions for one reason or another. And yet then looking at the apps, I actually am not too aware of what apps or equipments are there for broadcasting. But if you think of live events like the theater, like the fact that in many cases the equipment, like the set of headphones and so on are not working, it seems to be more frequent than not or than desirable anyway. So, yeah, yeah, you're giving me interesting ideas to kind of, like, continue doing research. So, yeah.

And what about in terms of sport? What figures there?

There is not real figures. So when I was trying to do research in sport, it was kind of tough to get responses from, like, big, you know, bodies here in Ireland. But since they have actually caught up and they are offering now, you know, kind of multisensory experiences for the last year or year and a half, that is done. For instance, the ga, which is the Gaelic Athletic association, and the I or a few, which deal with rugby. Other than that, it was, I think, in 2019 when small club in North Dublin, Bohemians Football Club, started to offer the description. So it's a really, you know, modest kind of like small club, small initiatives,

in a way, local initiatives.

Absolutely, absolutely. So they got it going because there was a voluntary who, you know, decided to kind of put the idea forward. There was no money involved, and it kind of like went out. It was. It was very successful. But still, you're talking about, you know, you're talking about small clubs. So other clubs in Ireland have followed. It has nothing to do with, you know, other initiatives that are taken in other places in Europe. So, yeah, it's small and steady, but there is one issue that most of the people doing this are doing so in a voluntary fashion.

Okay.

Isn't it true, though? And I'm gonna go in a positive route here. Isn't it true, though, that the fact that these things are springing up, led by volunteers, means that however slowly, I mean, it could always be faster, but awareness is actually growing.

Absolutely. I think it's fantastic. And, you know, as we say in Spain, I take my hat off, if that makes sense. I think it's fabulous that there is so many people kind of like, behind the doors. I just think it's a bit of a pity that it's been led mostly by volunteers, you know, without more of a structural support, which Is, you know, and recognition, I suppose.

Do you think the fact that there isn't enough audio description in sports may affect how a visually impaired person approaches exercise and fitness and interaction with sports themselves? Whether to take part or whether to support a football team or a rugby team?

It is true that if you have a culture of sport and that you actually are able to enjoy it in whatever manner it will draw attention to it and interest. Definitely. I mean like, you know, like you brush in or when you were asking the question I brought in my head like kids. If you have kids attending matches and kind of getting an idea of what's happening on the pitch and all that, isn't that going to kind of enhance a little bit of what they could be doing as well? I think there is specific associations that would look at sport for blind or visually impaired and so on. But I think everything helps to, to, to bring out this culture of, of accessive, of accessible culture, accessible sport and so on.

You know, it is nice also that the, with the European Championship and also with the World Championship etc, you know that the UEFA and FIFA they, they had this really nice app available where you have also these audio commentators available for, for all the matches and all different languages. They're all available.

Actually the Dutch public public broadcaster here does do audio described matches for the Dutch national team and when it's the World cup or the, the European cup, the European Championships, they also do Belgium because they just source the Belgian audio, Flemish audio, which is almost the same as Dutch. So yeah, yeah, they have both of those matches audio described on tv. The other ones you'd have to get through the app.

Yeah, each country will have their own or you know, applications that you can, you know, get the other description for. For instance, for live sport. Would it?

Yeah, I think so. There are all the head. Here in the Netherlands we have an app with the name Gassetti and that that is used by a lot of clubs and then you have some also local initiatives with the big clubs etc, they have their own audio system available in that way. But yeah, it would be nice I think for also to continue your research or another topic or add this.

Yeah.

The ways or the different systems available in a way.

You know. Can I just ask you there Jan, do you know does that, does that apply for Champions League games?

No, that's different. That is from the UEFA and from the FIFA, right?

Yes.

And that I, I, I have it on it's. Do you know that mo. Mo out of yet it's euro something Euro.

No, I had no Idea actually that that existed.

Well, there you go.

Right. The outreach that that's.

Yeah, no, no, I was talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's already here. Yeah, it's.

You. You just don't know everything that's available. And it's just, you know, there's so many things to navigate as a visually impaired person. Right. I have to know my screen reader. I have to know what has audio description and where to get it. I have to know how to cook, I have to know how to do this and to do that, which appliances for my home are accessible and all that stuff. So there's so much that you need to be aware of that just isn't available by default, which is the case for most sighted people. Right. Because everyone designs for sighted people and so everything is available to you by default and it's not the case for us. So I had no idea, actually, about this Euro app. I should go look it up. Yeah.

And I was also quite surprised that it was also for the ABN Ambro tennis tennis tournament, was also with Gasetti, with the audio description available. So it was also quite. Yeah, yeah. Pretty cool, I must say. Yeah.

Lucia, what's next for you? Where we. The report has been published. You're glad to get that. That side of it.

Take some rest.

You know

what happens next.

What's next? Well, you're next. Orano.

He's going to be roasted.

You put me in the spot. No, no, no. And so, yeah.

Offload this to Larry. Larry,

I know what. I suppose once this kind of like this primary research is, now that it's done, I suppose I'd like to continue working with the Stern group that collaborated with me. They are amazing workers and I just, you know, I'd like to kind of bring this to another level. So to see how we can actually make academia, industry, advocacy groups, but also end users, work together in a meaningful manner and kind of get more visibility in Ireland at the moment, I think things could work a little bit better, but it's very difficult to kind of change the narratives, change individual ways of doing things. I suppose perhaps try to replicate models that actually have been working in Europe for a while really well. And see, is it something that could work in Ireland too? Could we get more attention from the government in order to improve the description and what's being offered and so on. So, yeah, I need to explore further, but there is a tone of work to be done. Definitely. Including myself.

Sure.

Yeah, for sure.

And I have to applaud you because, I mean, nobody else, I don't think was in Ireland was thinking about doing this. No.

It's the first time I hear the

information you've come up with in the report is well worth a read. And the fact that you've included museums and theaters and sports and higher education system and the entertainment, it's some achievement to do this research. I really applaud.

I've touched on bits and pieces. Oren Pocha. I think there is a. You know, once you scrub the surface, there is so much more underneath.

Yeah, yeah, but I think that's the thing. You decided to do this not because I have to or because my brother or sister or wife or whoever is blind or my next door neighbor is, but because I can do something here to help.

Yeah.

What you've done is fantastic. Just to get. Get the ball rolling, as they say.

Oh, thanks for that. Yeah, well, the ball is rolling now, so hopefully.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

To our blind listeners. Go into places and ask for it. And if they don't have it, they'll now know that it exists. Right. And it might not do something with it. But if not enough of us ask, you know, it. It starts becoming more common knowledge.

Yeah, absolutely.

It's kind of making the gatekeepers of, you know, this access to different events, exhibition, cinema, whatever, you know, it's, it's. It's also the responsibility of knowing what it is.

And sometimes it may be there. Right. I. I mean, I talked about my. My solo trip to Berlin last summer, and I just stepped into places and I said, you know, what do you have for blind people? And sometimes they didn't have anything and they were like, no, we have nothing. And I went in anyway and sometimes they had stuff and they gave me like an audio tour, like a free audio tour. And then I had to go annoy other visitors to help me find the places where I needed to be. But still, it was kind of a bad, you know, to be. To be fair, I did choose that myself. I. I just sauntered into places.

And what he's not telling you is that he did try and steal a Trabant.

I did, I did. But, but, but I told you, don't say that on Airbant is an old East German car. It's a lawnmower. It's a lawnmower with four seats. That's what it is.

That's some image.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lucia, we will let you go. But finally, where can. Can people read the report freely? And where should they go to find out more?

So I suppose I've tried to have Everything centralized in a. On a website. It's not too complicated, but so you. If you go to adesi ireland.com so that's a dash dash S I or L E or Ireland. Can I. Can I spell ireland a n d.com so you'll be able to. To download it from there. It's an accessible report as well. So it should be. It's not. It's not overly long.

No, it's not.

And hopefully you'll find this of interest. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, thank you very much for coming on the show and talking about my favorite subject.

Thank you for having me.

Okay, many thanks, Lucia.

Many thanks. Thank you very much, Lucia. And just before we go, I want to mention an event that's taking place on March 31st. The Audio Description association are holding a VI Users Group event which we're going to be talking about audio description appropriately and I am going to be hosting it. It's going to take place between 7pm and 8pm GMT on March 31st as I said. And what we'd like you to do is view some content and give us your views on the audio description. It's a simple little task. Your options on linear are to watch an episode or multiple episodes of any of these series. So you can watch EastEnders on BBC or you could watch the Night Manager series 2 which is also on the BBC and iPlayer and on Netflix you can watch all or some of Bridgerton and also a thriller called Missing you and again that's on Netflix. So you can watch all of those titles if you want, as much as you want or as little as you want. And we just want to know what you like about the audio description. What do you not like about the audio description? Is skin tone importance to you? Do you feel that there's things that are missed by audio describers and how much of it is relevant etc, etc. So it's very general and we'd love to hear your views on the night. So as I say, it's on the 31st of March between 7 and 8pm GMT and I will leave a link for registration in the show notes so hopefully you can attend that. Okay folks, that's it for us and we will see you in two weeks time. Bye.